Posts by Spiritual Mask Salesman

If I could could get one wish granted, and the wish had no limitations, I'm sure if I thought about it long enough I could make it very useful. In the Legend of Zelda series the Triforce is a mystical relic that can grant any desire. Its power has been used a few times in the series, but after considering most of the wishes, the full potential of its power seems wasted.


According to legend, the Triforce was left behind by the 3 goddesses after they created Hyrule. It was left at the point where they descended down.


"The land where the goddesses descended down became known as the Sacred Realm." - Lanayru, the Light Spirit (TP)


The Triforce is unique, apparently it is the most powerful relic in existence. This being because it makes any desire a reality.


"The old gods created a Supreme Power that gave anyone who possessed it the ability to shape reality and fulfill any desire. They call it the Triforce." - Zelda (SS)


It really does sound like a grand power, one that, as far as I'm aware, has no equal in the canon series. With it one could warp reality, either for good or evil. And notably there are no restrictions on what can be wished for, it will grant "any" desire, meaning even if it was sick, twisted, and demented, it would still have to be granted. This is really the reason why I think the Triforce is overkill. Any wish can be granted, the Triforce could be responsible for some largely impactful wishes, but in retrospect, the wishes on it were pretty basic.


I've counted 6 successful uses of a Triforce. First by SS Link, later by Ganondorf on the Downfall Timeline, followed by Link unwishing Ganon's wish on that same timeline. In A Link Between Worlds, we learn Lorule's Triforce was used by the Lorulian Royal Family, I assume, to destroy their Triforce (it is possible that a wish could be made on the Triforce for its own destruction. I see it as the only possibility that Lorule's Triforce could have been destroyed). Link and Zelda then used Hyrule's Triforce and wished to restore power to Lorule's Triforce. On the Adult Timeline the King of Hyrule also used the Triforce to make a wish. Most of these wishes, and also wishes that others attempted to make, weren't very impactful. SS Link wished for the eradication of Demise in the present. A better wish would have been the eradication of all evil throughout all time. Ganondorf's ambition for the Triforce is usually to rule the entire world. Why not just wish for the death of the gods and ascend to become a god? There are just so many better wishes that could be made. The only intuitive wishes are the ones in A Link Between Worlds. The Lorulian Royal Family wished to destroy their Triforce. As a result, their world began to collapse. Apparently the Triforce is fundamental to worlds that have them. The wish on Hyrule's Triforce to restore power to Lorule's Triforce displays just how far-reaching the Triforce's power can be - it influenced a parallel universe.


It isn't the fault of the mortals who use the Triforce that they don't use it to its fullest potential, they lack higher perception afterall. Only gods could harness the Triforce in ways that'd push the full potential of its power out. Unfortunately gods cannot wield the Triforce.


"For while the Supreme Power of The Triforce was created by gods, all of its power can never be wielded by one." - Zelda (SS)


It's probably a good thing though, by restricting gods from being able to use the Triforce the mortals are spared from what would be a chaotic war of grand proportions. Now if only the mortals could get better insight on their world, and universe, and really grasped the Triforce's power, then they could do some damage.


My conclusion is the Triforce is overkill, it is wasted in mortal hands. I'd be like if we were suddenly swept into the game, hypothetically, and were standing in the Sacred Realm with the Triforce right in front of us. We can wish for literally anything. Immortality, and eternal youth! Sounds good right? We make the wish. Awesome! But then the Triforce disappears, and we end up in Hyrule. We forgot to wish to get back to our own reality, and our own world. Aw shit...

It happens very often.

Quote from Silent Lion

Now, I've never played A Link Between Worlds, so I'm going purely on the information you posted. It's not yet on the official timeline to my knowledge, so is there any information about where on the Zelda chronology A Link Between Worlds is meant to take place, and how recent this destruction of the Triforce happened? Because that could destroy the theory - it has to be possible for the Triforce to be destroyed before Demise comes to Hyrule, which in itself is a long time before the events of SS.

A Link Between Worlds is on the official Timeline, it's located after A Link to the Past.

The destruction of their Triforce isn't recent in the game at all, it was destroyed long before ALBW takes place. My idea is that it was their version of the Imprisoning War, which leads into a near decline of Lorule. Keep in mind that Lorule and Hyrule are parallel worlds, so their timelines don't have to match up perfectly. In fact, I believe when Lorule's Triforce is destroyed Hyrule would be pretty early in it's history.

This theory has bugged me for awhile. For years I've seen it pop up every once inawhile but nobody has ever fleshed it on most forums I join. So my goal is to revise it for the forum to finally get some full on debate going about this theory. It's a work in progress.

Note: This theorizing will be done from an in-universe point of view, meaning that I'm looking at this theory as if Hyrule and Lorule are real. This is extremely important, as doing it any other way would open up the argument that games that were created before A Link Between Worlds would not be able to reference Lorule because it was not created yet.

Before I begin I'm going to admit that I don't know if I'm personally going to adopt this theory yet. The thing I hate about it is the fact that with all the evidence gathered it all seems to imply that Demise is from Lorule. We just can't take it any futher than that implication which bothers me. To start, I think it's important that we know who Demise is before we even jump into the the theory.

Who is Demise?

Fi in Skyward Sword says this about Demise:

"This eternal being has conquered time itself. It is the source of all monsters." - Fi

He is basically the embodiment of all evil, supposedly. His main role in the series was to serve as the source for the re-occurences of Ganondorf by setting his hate curse upon Link and Zelda.

“My hate... never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again. Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!" - Demise

Demise's sole purpose is to obtain the Triforce and destroy the gods at all costs. That's pretty much it. Because he had such a short appearence and the game didn't go in depth on his backstory (telling us were he came from, why he just hates the gods for no real specified reasons, etc...), it left the door open for theories like this one.

Lorule, a parallel world and it's counterparts

Lorule is very similar to Hyrule. While Termina is stated to also be a parallel world to Hyrule, Lorule resembles Hyrule more than Termina does (in ways). Notably, Lorule has a Sacred Realm, a Royal Family, and clear counterparts to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf (Ravio, Hilda, and Yugu). Futhermore it had a Triforce of it's own which is very interesting. Though the game states the Triforce in Lorule was depended on too much. When war broke out over it Hilda's ancestors destroyed it in hopes of returning peace to the land. Instead Lorule fell futher into turmoil and is close to crumbling during the timeframe of A Link Between Worlds.

We have a consistent equivalent to almost everything in Hyrule, what we are missing is a Master Sword.

Demise might orginate from Lorule?

For the sake of easy transition I'll begin to tie key points together starting with the Lorulian Master Sword. In A Link Between Worlds there is no Lorulian equivalent to Hyrule's Master Sword. The whole reason Ravio seeks Link's help is because he has no Master Sword of his own to use in Lorule. The question that arises is why isn't there a Lorulian equivalent to it? The answer is that there might be a Lorulian Master Sword and Demise weilds it. At the end of Skyward Sword it is revealed that Ghirahim was actually a being that resides in a sword, like Fi. Demise reverts Ghirahim into the sword which he really is. The sword has often been speculated to be the anti-thesis to the Master Sword. Possibly the Lorulian Master Sword, designed for a different purpose than to fight evil obviously? It has the inverted Triforce on it. It's a backless assumption because we just don't know, although it explains why Lorule is missing a Master Sword equivalent — Demise took it to Hyrule and was killed.

This next point is also very interesting. Demise and his army came from a fissure.

"One dark, fateful day, the earth cracked wide and malevolent forces rushed forth from the fissure. They mounted a brutal assault upon the surface people, driving the land into deep despair... They burnt forests to ash, choked the land's sweet springs, and murdered without hesitation. They did all this in their lust to take the ultimate power protected by Her Grace, the goddess." - Introduction (Skyward Sword)

In A Link Between Worlds fissures serve as portals linking Hyrule and Lorule. The fissures are created due to Yugu's actions, but what we know is that there was a ancient crack linking Hyrule and Lorule together on a stone slab inside Lorule's Sacred Realm which Yugu discovered.

"Yuga discovered that there was a strange crack in this grim slate... Through it, we could sense that there was another world beyond ours... a place where the Triforce still existed." - Hilda

This could have been were Demise learned of Hyrule as well, assuming he is Lorulian.

His motive for going to Hyrule would be to obtain it's Triforce. Denied the Lorulian Triforce it makes sense for him to take his army to Hyrule using a fissure serving as a portal between the worlds. Maybe it was his army that marched an assault for Lorule's Triforce also? I do think that the difference in what timeframes both worlds are in matches. I'm under the impression that when Demise came to Hyrule Lorule probably would be about mid-way through it's history (having Triforce issues and all that). Hyrule would be at an early point in it's history so it'd make sense for Demise to end up in the timeframe he did. We also see that mid-way into Hyrule's history Lorule is on the verge of the end of it's own. If things would have continued on like they were Lorule would have fell to ruin.

To conclude, we must ask ourselves were these similarities intentional, or coincidental? After writing this I feel like there is so much mystery still shrouding the theory that the evidence gathered can niether prove or disprove it's validity. What we need is a smoking gun proving a connection to Demise and Lorule, unfortunately there isn't one. If we could just get more info about Demise, even the sword itself that could be enough to put this theory to rest.

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I do know that there are conflicting theories on certain aspects of this theory which is why I encourage people to come forth with those theories. I think this has potential to spark some great discussion. So feel free to share other theories. Maybe you have a different idea about Demise's orgins? Maybe you have a theory about why Demise's Sword can't be from Lorule (I know such theories exist). I'll be looking foward to seeing were this goes.

Quote from ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I found through the power of memes.

Channeling that power led me to ZD.

Quote from Silent Lion

Yeah, me too. I thought about rejoining, but it looked a little crowded. And I've only got time for one forum really, so I make it a good one :^_~:

It's not too crowded. Forum activity has declined over the years so things aren't like they used to be like 4 years ago.

What name did you go by on ZD?

DM has a big collection.

Quote from Kaynil

I would suggest HyruleWarriors.com but probably by now you know where this is going.
What happened is that many years ago Zelda Community and Zelda Cavern merged, this is why both urls redirect here.
Just for reference you might want to check the Domains that currently go to the Zelda Cavern forums.

Yeah it was like years ago when he told me about it and it was only days ago I was like, “I should check that place out”. I'm years late, lol.

Quote from DARK MASTER

Hi,

I'm probably the biggest Zelda fan you'll ever meet, in terms of time, money, and knowledge. I'm from ZeldaDungeon.net, but saw this community linked in our achieve thread, so figured I'd check it out. I am a history and philosophy major. I also use Skype a lot.

tanks, hope dis bruha was informative

I linked it on the ZD archive, lol.

Devised and Written by: Spiritual Mask Salesman (I'm from Zelda Dungeon's forum), and Linkle (From Zelda Universe's Forum)
Special thanks to: JC-Hurin (a friend of mine from ZD)

Religion is considered to be pivitol in reality, it gives us insight on how our ancestors in the past lived, how they thought, and what myths and laws were commonplace in the past. When analysing ancient religions we usually find that simple religions, such as monothestic ones, tend to last longer than complex Polythestic religions. Keeping that in mind, Linkle and I wonder why Hylia worship would have died out in Hyrule, it seems more likely that Hylia worship would stay strong in the land due to how simple it is. Why would polythestic based worship become dominant over a monothestic one?

There have been various dieties amoung the many canon Zelda games, one which always stood out to us, in particular, is Hylia — she seemed like a very important religious figure during her time, and even thousands of years afterward on Skyloft. We know she obviously was very important, in fact the Hylians derived the name of their race (after Skyward Sword) from her name. Although in later games it seems worship for Hylia has faded from Hyrule, what could have happened? She was such an important diety, why would worship for her stop? Together Linkle and myself have devised a theory which we believe will explain what happened to monothesthic worship for Hylia, and if it even could still exist in Hyrule, but foremost we will cover how the three goddesses tie in.

Note: All of our theorizing will be done from an in-universe point of view, meaning that we are looking at this theory as if Hyrule was real; therefore, developer intent does not matter. This is extremely important, as doing it any other way would open up the argument that most games that take place after Skyward Sword in the timeline were actually created before it, and thus Hylia could not have been mentioned in them. We thank you for joining us today and hope you will enjoy our theory!

We will begin around the time of Skyward Sword, the status of the three goddesses at this point is important and worth noting; they are often refered to as “old gods” which indicates that their popularity was fading.

“Her second plan...was to abandon her divine form and transfer her soul to the body of a mortal. ...She made this sacrifice, as you have likely guessed, so that the supreme power created by the old gods could one day be used. For while the supreme power of the Triforce was created by gods, all of its power can never be wielded by one." — Zelda (Skyward Sword)

“Handed down by gods of old, this power gave its holder the means to make any desire a reality. Such was the might of the ultimate power that the old ones placed it in the care of the goddess.” — Fi (Skyward Sword, intro text)

We do know that there is undocumented history predating even the creation of skyloft, which is atleast thousands of years old itself.

“Allow me tell you about the history of Skyloft! Skyloft is an island that has floated here for ages... Thousands of years. Our ancestors have always lived on this island, as well as the surrounding islands in the sky." — Owlan (Skyward Sword)

We aren't even sure how far back history might go in this case, considering the great advancements in technology the ancient people achieved (harnessing timeshift stones as energy) they would have atleast been around a considerable amount of time to reach such a level, a level which their descendants in the future would never match again. Maybe mutiple centuries had passed and during the time of Hylia, worship for the goddesses, and possibly a whole epoch unknown to us, was coming to an end. the people may have even began worshipping other dieties. To prevent the people they had created from straying from them, maybe even forgetting about them, the goddesses set Hylia as a diety not only to protect the Triforce, but maybe also to maintain an indirect link to the goddesses for the people?

Now we shift foward in time after Skyward Sword; Hylia worship has faded, the goddesses are popular again; why? Skyward Sword was heavily centered around the Triforce. Searching for it, finding it, and using it was crucial in order to destroy Demise. Afterward the surface was repopulated, legends of the Triforce never faded, and in mutiple games wars are menetioned to have broke out for the Triforce.

"But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensued..." — Lanayru (Twlight Princess)

The Triforce allures almost everyone. Linkle and I believe that through the Triforce the three goddesses grew in popularity again. Credited as the makers of the Triforce this would make them well renowned in a land were Triforce lore captivates all. Consequently to believe in the Triforce requires one to also believe that the three goddesses are real, in the Wind Waker we see an example of this.

"Gods of the Triforce! Hear that which I desire! Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!!!" — King Daphnes Nohansen Hyrule (Wind Waker)

The King acknowledges the goddesses before making his wish, even Ganondorf does it in the game proir to the King making a wish. We have no doubt that the Triforce is what revived worship for the three goddesses in Hyrule. How exactly does this all play out in terms of Hylia worship?

We know for a fact that Hylia worship must have faded because there are there no shrines or temples dedicated to Hylia in games after Skyward Sword. This suggests that either her followers no longer exist, they are few, or they were converted and any temples for Hylia were re-purposed.

Our intial thoughts are that Hylia Worship could have eventually become more or less political leadership via the Royal Family, and less of a religion that is worshipped. Afterall Zelda is Hylia reborn as a mortal, and that bloodline is maintained within the Royal Family. The Royal Family basically performs most of the same duties Hylia did. They keep order in the land, and hide the Triforce along with any ancient relics or knowledge that can lead to it. Hylia Worship may have evolved into that, more or less leadership, a monarchy, rather than being a religion. In ways the Royal Family is worshipped, but not like dieties or anything. That is likely what happened to Hylia worship, but there is still a possibility it lived on as a religion.

Digging into the idea of the religion changing, there are only two dieties in games after Skyward Sword we know nothing about who could be Hylia. There is a snake diety we see in the Gerudo Colossus, and in Majora's Mask there are references to a “Goddess of Time”. The snake diety we don't even know the name of, it's likely it is just a random diety they created overtime. Still it isn't uncommon to see the appearence and depiction of a diety change in reality — maybe this is what happened with Hylia? The “Goddess of Time” diety seems like it could be Hylia, the title certainly does sound like it could fit her. The only issue is the reference is so vague, ontop of that the diety is never menetioned outside of Majora's Mask. We do know that Zelda did reference the diety, as this quote will show.

"The Goddess of Time is protecting you. If you play the Song of Time, she will aid you..." — Princess Zelda (Majora's Mask)

At the same time it seems that the people of Termina also know about the same diety, making her non-exclusive to the land of Hyrule like Hylia should be.

"Somebody! Anybody!!! Goddess of Time, help us please! We need more time!" — Tatl (Majora's Mask)

"Only a little more than two days left...Oh, Goddess of Time, please save me..." — Man in Oceanside Spider House (Majora's Mask)

Hylia could be associated with time; she not only created the two Gates of Time, but her human reincarnation, Zelda, could activate and open them by singing and playing her song, the Ballad of the Goddess, on the Goddess' Harp. One of the Gates resided within the Sealed Temple, A.K.A. the Temple of Hylia, which would one day become the Temple of Time — if there is a temple dedicated to this Goddess of Time in Hyrule it'd be likely that the Temple of Time would be it. Furthermore, in Ocarina of Time Zelda was the one to teach Link the Song of Time, the Ocarina of Time looks like it is made of Timeshift Stones,Hyrule Historia even hints toward it, and also was the Seventh Sage, whom many believe to be a “Sage of Time”. She also possesses the Triforce of Wisdom, which connects her to the Goddess of Wisdom, Nayru. Now whether Hylia is this “Goddess of Time” we can't be certain, we can assume that she is but we still can't explain how the people of Termina might now of her.

There really is no conclusive evidence to back that any of these random dieties — who we know nothing about — could be Hylia, although this same lack of evidence still keeps the debate open. Linkle and I agree that Hylia worship may still exhist in Hyrule and has either took on a different form as leadership through the Royal Family, or just lost popularity eventually fading to have very few followers left.

A friend of mine from Zelda Dungeon told me about the website Zelda Community, I just tried typing in the URL and I was redirected here, and I realize now that this isn't the same website.